wizard comp

in the secrets to the wee free men and discworld there is a page about who the best wizard is in all of fantasy. who do you think would win in a mage war.

the options are:mustrum ridicully, coin,dumbledore,gandalf and a few others.
it would be good if you could tell me some more to put on the list

my opinion is that ridicullt would win because he is the only wizard that would suit a main character role.

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Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

hmm, Gandalf seems a bit far off topic, so not really easy to compare.
But on the whole, I'd vote for Rincewind. He's the most experienced in surviving and even survived a mage war in "sourcery"


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"The problem with Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again." - George Miller


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

i think ridcully would suit a main character role not because of his skills at using magic but because of his
skills at bullying others and at seeing and believing just what suits him and ignore everything else!


--

life is hard. after all it kills you.
katherine hepburn

.....Are we not all, in some way, looking for our cow?


Re: wizard comp

DruidThudmeister

I would also vote for Rincewind a sneaky half brick in a sock trumps a lot of mumbling in weird languages under a hanging stuffed alligator in my book Wink Twisted Evil


--

Where are we going and why am i in this handbasket?...
...Oh! always try to look on the bright side...
... Um anybody got any marshmellows.?


Re: wizard comp

thank you, Alex. That's nearly what I wanted to say Wink


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My magic is bigger than my brain... Geek


Re: wizard comp

Ridicully would hunt them down with his hunting crossbow and athletics.


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- 'Faith' means not wanting to know what is true.

- In heaven all the interesting people are missing.

-Friedrich Nietzsche


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

them? Rincewind is only one unless u count archancellor Rincewind in EcksEcksEcksEcks as well


--

"The problem with Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again." - George Miller


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

Rincewind surely is the most persistent wiz(z)ard!


--

life is hard. after all it kills you.
katherine hepburn

.....Are we not all, in some way, looking for our cow?


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

the good thing about beeing at the bottom of the career ladde is, noone wants to push you off


--

"The problem with Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again." - George Miller


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

and nobody wants your place either! Wink


--

life is hard. after all it kills you.
katherine hepburn

.....Are we not all, in some way, looking for our cow?


Re: wizard comp

An interesting thought, but first of all, you have to get your characters straight.

Coin isn't a wizard at all. He's a sorcerer, which is something entirely different. But during Coins time he was an unique power, mightier than the gods, which is something Ridcully haven't been able to pride himself with.

Some have mentioned Rincewind, and once again I marvel at the lack of comprehension for the characters (no offence meant). While Rincewind might survive, he definitely wouldn't win, it's against his character to win!

Dumbledore; I hope I'm not making anyone disappointed, but he was killed by Snape, and even if he did have a quite large impact even after his death, he definitely should be disqualified due to being dead.

That only leaves two options of the ones you suggested; Mustrum Ridcully and Gandalf. Both appears to spend a lot of time outdoor, so that wouldn't be an advantage for either one of them. The problem is that they come from different mythologies; Gandalf, when the books end, is the mighiest "wizard", and in the University Ridcully is the greatest amongst equals.
I don't ever recall Ridcully being able to actually achieve much; he manages to kill some small things, but nothing of what he does can compare to the killing of an ancient fire-demon (Balrog). The advantage is on Gandalfs side, and it's even more so when one considers that Ridcullys magic only works in the Discworlds magical field, while no limitations like that are being stated about Gandalf.

We should perhaps look at other wizards;
Albert (Deaths Servant and the founder of UU) have survived a lot of conflicts, he has remained in his position despite formally being a wizard of very high rank, and that isn't a small achievement. Death is literally his companion, and all of his enemies are dead. However, the situation reminds us of Rincewind, and we have to ask; is surviving the same as winning?

Perhaps we find the mightiest wizard of all in the tree... if we leave the Discworld and enter the world of mythology. Odin, with his position as both god of war and death AND wizardry should be fairly strong. If you look for guidance in the world of Marvel the Nordic gods are described as some of the most powerful beings in existence. The big problem is the timeline. We "know" that Odin will perish in Ragnarök, but during Ragnarök all violent men will die, therefore, it's quite easy to assume that it haven't happened yet. Therefore we should compare Gandalf and Odin.
In that comparison Gandalf falls flat. Both are from the dawn of time (not from the very beginning, but not very far from it). Both are of divine origin; Gandalf is an Istari, which can be described as a lesser deity, while Odin is the Lord of the Gods, deathgod and one of the most feared gods. All in all Gandalf is quite small and insignificant in comparison to Odin.
Istari are clearly subject to death, and besides, it's not very wise to enter a war against a god of war...

===

The conclusion is; unless you exclude divine and semi-divine beings, the most powerful wizard I can think of is Odin.


Re: wizard comp

Bronze MemberLibrarian
Ophe wrote:

While Rincewind might survive, he definitely wouldn't win, it's against his character to win!

but if we are talking about a mage war here, meaning mages fighting each other, would not surviving, at least if you're the only one, mean you won?


--

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. – Mark Twain

Save the rats, eat a dwarf!


Re: wizard comp

Ratdeath wrote:
Ophe wrote:

While Rincewind might survive, he definitely wouldn't win, it's against his character to win!

but if we are talking about a mage war here, meaning mages fighting each other, would not surviving, at least if you're the only one, mean you won?

The keywords are "mages fighting eachothers". Rincewind never fights if it's possible to avoid it. In the different books many have fought Rincewind, but Rincewind have only fought a few barbarians and a couple of helpless tentacle-monsters in their own plane (which means they were awfully fluffy). In "Colour of magic" and "Light Fantastic" the spell does some fighting for him, but to say that Rincewind fights anything, well, that's going a little bit to far.
Same thing in "Interesting Times". Many fights Rincewind, but he doesn't fight anyone. He survives, but that's about it.

Imagine a boxer running away from a fight... noone would say that the boxer won, even if the boxer might have survived without a single scratch.


Re: wizard comp

DruidThudmeister
Ophe wrote:
Ratdeath wrote:
Ophe wrote:

While Rincewind might survive, he definitely wouldn't win, it's against his character to win!

but if we are talking about a mage war here, meaning mages fighting each other, would not surviving, at least if you're the only one, mean you won?

The keywords are "mages fighting eachothers". Rincewind never fights if it's possible to avoid it. In the different books many have fought Rincewind, but Rincewind have only fought a few barbarians and a couple of helpless tentacle-monsters in their own plane (which means they were awfully fluffy). In "Colour of magic" and "Light Fantastic" the spell does some fighting for him, but to say that Rincewind fights anything, well, that's going a little bit to far.
Same thing in "Interesting Times". Many fights Rincewind, but he doesn't fight anyone. He survives, but that's about it.

Imagine a boxer running away from a fight... noone would say that the boxer won, even if the boxer might have survived without a single scratch.

If we are talking your boxer analogy you could say that the boxer had won from his point of view if all other boxers died from punch drunk injury's before him which is kind of the idea in Sourcey a full out Mage War is the Discworld equivalent of all out Global Thermo Nuclear War in Roundworld there would be no winners but Rincewind causes a solution where he and everybody else wins by surviving. If you think alternatively you can win by your own standards when given a binary choice by coming up with a third option.


--

Where are we going and why am i in this handbasket?...
...Oh! always try to look on the bright side...
... Um anybody got any marshmellows.?


Re: wizard comp

Bronze MemberLibrarian

@ophe:
I've considered this for a bit and come to the conclusion, that if you use a definition for "wizard" tight enough to rule coin out, you must do the same to gandalf and odin, because they are gods (as you said yourself) and that's where their power comes from. so that means we'd need new wizards for the competition. so we've got ridcully, maybe other wizards from the dw universe and.. the harry potter universe? dumbledore is not the only wizard there and a lot of them aren't even dead.
the alternative would be using a definition broad enough for the two wizard-like gods to be allowed to enter the competition. but then you'd have to take coin back in, too...


--

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. – Mark Twain

Save the rats, eat a dwarf!


Re: wizard comp

Hmm... Coin is very clear on the fact that he isn't a wizard; however, Gandalf is repeatedly referred to as a wizard. But it's a little tricky... an Istari is an Maiar, which is a spirit older than the world itself, one of the first beings created. However, they were forbidden from acting as Maiar, and were limited to a mortal shape, and their powers limited in a similar fashion. And since they were forced to play by the rules of mortals they cannot really be considered as gods, even if they can be considered as very powerful mortals.
Odin on the other hand, he's a god without a doubt, but the question here is from where his power originates. If we look at the other gods in Valhalla, you will notice that almost none of them had any magic powers; Thor, Tyr, Balder, Heimdall, Skade... they had no skills with magic at all. Odin, on the other hand, had sacrificed his own eye for knowledge, and because of this, he learned practically all secrets, and thus becoming a wizard. For example, a Genie wouldn't count as a wizard, because the Genie derives its powers from who it is, rather than from what it knows.

In my eyes it's more of a question between innate abilities and abilities originating from knowledge.

=====

If we use my boxer analogy... if the opponent doesn't show up, it doesn't count as a victory, it counts as a "no contest". In order to win, you have to compete. Nothing is said about there being no positive effects by avoiding the competition altogether, however, the question was "Who would win".


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

Another Discworld Wizzard came to my mind, while reading your posts.
The Librarian is technically speaking also a Wizard and quite a powerfull one even, because noone managed to turn him back. Also noone knowing his name probably helped...


--

"The problem with Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again." - George Miller


Re: wizard comp

AltogetherAndrews wrote:

Another Discworld Wizzard came to my mind, while reading your posts.
The Librarian is technically speaking also a Wizard and quite a powerfull one even, because noone managed to turn him back. Also noone knowing his name probably helped...

Have the librarian ever cast any spells in his furry shape? I can't recall reading that he ever did.


Re: wizard comp

Bronze Member

nope, unless the soothing of magic books does count

although many wizards in Discworld never actually cast a spell explicitely. Therefore it's quite hard to determine if he ever cast a spell or not.


--

"The problem with Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again." - George Miller


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