I would love to be able to play with the dwarves and actually kill a troll or two, but simply cannot figure the tactics out. I am a reasonable chess player and can normally see how the tips can be executed, but this is jst baffling me and preventing me having fun with what i believe could be a fabulous game!
Ok, i get the idea that you need to make blocks, but as soon as i get anywhere near doing so, a pesky troll has stepped up and destroyed its potential. Likewise, i cannot take a troll who is standing next to me...becaiuse there is NEVER a troll standing next to me...as soon as i move to wirhin one square, he will move next to me and take me. If i move next to him, he will then move and take me. If i am more than 1 square away then i am too far away to take hime!!! ARGGHH!!
But the rules advise forming blocks and this is obviously where the secret lies. I have seen advice about diagon al moving, changing your movement around th eboard, forming more than one block etc, but ot no avail!
Please help this frustrated Pratchett fan figure out how to use the dwarfs!!!
Thanks in advance and if you do find a chance to post a reply, Please spell out the answer as if i was a child as i am feeling pretty stoopid after all this!!!
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[Apologies for deleting your three posts to other threads, and your other forum topic. We discussed this at some length, and felt that since they were all prettymuch identical, there was no need for "spammy" repetition: patience, grasshopper, you need post only once, and people will at least try to answer!]
Now, I'm no dwarf wiz, Oograh Boike and Mr Scrub and... well frankly prettymuch anyone can whup my butt most of the time.
But here's what I've seen being done.
I'm deliberately not using coordinates here. I believe that coordinates are a VERY silly way of explaining a game to a new user, accomplishing nothing other than scaring them away. I find it hard to believe that even experienced players think in terms of coordinates, but certainly new players think in terms of patterns, which humans are very very good at, rather than abstract references, which only computers feel at ease with.
1) The fake block.
The trolls start off with four lines of 3 trolls, attacking all edges of the board.
Moving your first dwarf to make a distractionary "fake" block will cause one of the trolls to advance towards it in some way. This will break up the centre block. The trolls will then have one line which is "vulnerable" - a line which they need to spend at least one turn repairing before they can attack with it.
Here you see that a troll has moved to make a line of four - but that breaks the line of three that it was once a member of. So building a block at the top or bottom of the board will be a little easier now: you'll have one more turn to do it.
Or you could wait until the trolls have actually attacked before deciding wherre to put the block.
2) The sacrificial dwarf.
When there is a line of trolls, it is sometimes a good idea to move a dwarf up next to that line, in order to break it up.
This is used as a delaying tactic to gain you a single extra move before the trolls reach your block.
Either the player will carry out their shove, and you will then be able to take a troll (you gain four points)...
...or the dwarf will be taken (you lose one point), but the attacking line will be broken, and will take one turn to repair.
3) Building the Baseline
I don't know if this is the best way to build a block, but it's a way that has proved unpleasantly successful against me, at least.
Most of the better players seem to build the block baseline first - the line of three dwarfs at the edge of the board.
This gives the attacking line a much better chance of being defensible, and makes it much easier to make a line past which a single troll may not pass. Getting the cornerpiece in place is one of the annoyingly hard things when building a block, as there are no diagonal pieces that will fit. So getting it done early is a significant advantage, particularly considering its defensive importance.
d d . d d d . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . . . d D moves a dwarf down d . . . . . t t t T . . . . d to start a fake block . . . . . . t # * . . . . . D d . . . . . t t t . . . . . * T forms an attacking line d . . . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . d d d . d d d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . . . d D starts another block in line with d . . . . . t t t t . . . . d the troll's remaining vertical attack line. . . . . . . t # . . . . . . d d . . . . . t * t . . . . . . d . . . . . T . . . . . . . d T forms another attack line. d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . d d d D * d d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . D starts yet another block. d . . . . . t t t * . . . T . D . . . . . t # . . . . . . . * . . . . . t . t . . . . . . d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d T attacks. T is 3 points up. d . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . d d d d . d3) Building the Attacking Line
Once you have laid your baseline, the most important thing to build is an "attacking" line of three dwarfs, pointing at the troll line. You are then no longer a passive splatting-victim: you are on the attack!
d d . d d d . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . d D starts building an attacking line. d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d D . . . T t t t . . . . t . T has a choice - take another easy 3 d . . . . . * # . . . . . . . points, or attack the block. We'll assume, . . . . . . t . t . . . . . d just because it's more annoying for us when d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d we're trying to build a block, that he d . . . . . . . . . . . d chooses to attack the block. d . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d (If he chose to take the easy points, then d . . . . . d things are much the same, except we get one d d d . * more move to prepare for his attack.) d . . . . . . . . . . . d D has the attacking line in place. The troll d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . at the front of the shoving line is now under d d D . . t t t t . . . . t . attack. If the troll is shoved forward, then d . . . . . . # . . . . . . . the dwarf line is broken, but the troll will . . . . . . t . t . . . . . d be taken, and the block can be rebuilt elsewhere d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d quite quickly. d . . . . . . . . . . . d So the troll has the option of moving away. * . . . . . . . . . d4) Extending the Line
Depending how the troll reacts to your line, you then have various choices. If they move the troll that's under attack out of the way, you may be able to add a fourth dwarf to the end of your line. You are then guaranteed to get a troll - even if they move another troll out the way, you will still get the one behind it.
This is handy to remember - an overlong line is ALWAYS a good thing to have.
5) Defending the Block
It may help here to show the "defended" squares to which a dwarf could be thrown, ignoring one-square throws, but counting throws that would pass over other pieces (+). These are the squares that would be "deadly" for T (We ignore one-square shoves because anything that'd only capture with a one-square shove would be taken if the troll moved beside it).
To defend the block, we need an unbroken wall of either deadly squares or dwarfs between T and our block.
d . . . . . . . . . . . d The attacked troll has two places to move d . . . T . . . . . . . . . . in order to threaten the dwarfs: up-left or d d d . . * t t t . . . . t . down-left. d . . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . t . t . . . . . d Let us consider up-left first. d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . d Now he is so close, the dwarf attack line . . . . . . . . . . d can't be extended to 4: it'd just be taken. d d . d d d . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . d No moves are made in this display. d . + . . . . . . . . . d Spaces defended by dwarfs are shown (+). d . . . t . . . . . . . . . . d d d + + + t t t . . . . t . The dwarfs must make it so there is no way d . . . . . . # . . . . . . . for the troll to advance without passing . . . + . . t . t . . . . . d through a defended square. d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . . . . . d Ideally, every defensive move they make . . . . . . . . . . d should add to the block, rather than moving d . . . . . . . d existing block members. d . . . . . d d d d . . d * . d d So a move is made that extends the d . . . . . d defended squares, completely blocking the d . . . . . . . d troll. d + . . . . . . . . d d . + . . . . . . . . . d This is made a TON easier by the fact that d D . + t . . . . . . . . . . we have the baseline there already. d d d + + + t t t . . . . t . Defending a block with an incomplete d . . . . . . # . . . . . . . baseline is much harder. . . . + + . t . t . . . . . d d . . . . . t . . . . . . . d The only way for the trolls to attack now is d . . . . . . . . . . . d to shove. And in doing so, they'll lose a troll. . . . . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . d d . . . . . d d d d . .6) Defending against shoving
Just like with regular moves, if a troll is shoved onto a defended square, then the troll will be lost.
Defending against shoves is usually best accomplished by making it so that any row of trolls is pointing at a defended square, ajacent to a single dwarf. That way, any shove will win them 1 point and lose them 4.
The above layout is an example of that: the troll shoving line would, at best, capture the dwarf at the end of the attacking line.
But, say the trolls moved to attack the row above?
d + . . . . . . . . d Trolls make a new line. They can now jump d . + . . . . . . . . . d to an undefended square. d d . + t T . . . . . . . . . Dwarfs have two options: move a dwarf in d d d + + + * t t . . . . t . to add to the block, or move one of the d . . . . . . # . . . . . . . block members. * + . . . . . . . . d This attacks the troll line, builds the d . + . . . . . . . . . d block, but exposes two dwarfs to being d d D + t T . . . . . . . . . taken themselves. d d d + + + * t t . . . . t . There's no point building the block if d . . . + . . # . . . . . . . the piece will be taken anyway. d + . . . . . . . . d This alternative is better: it still attacks d . + . . . . . . . . . d the trolls, still makes it so that if the d d D + t T . . . . . . . . . trolls attack they'll land on a protected d d * + . . * t t . . . . t . square, but only exposes one dwarf to being d . . . + . . # . . . . . . . taken.Anyway, that's my take on it. But like I said, I'm a rank amateur. I'd be interested in what heuristics other people use in order to figure out how to defend their blocks. Writing a thudplaying bot will be a LOT of fun, I think.
[edits: rewritten to include the importance of the base line in defence, and to show how to defend against shoves.]
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HI
I know how you feel - I think we are all like that when we start..
Do you have Thudboard?
It might be helpful to have a look at some of the game other more experience players have played. you can download some played games here
I'd recomed looking at Palm v's oograh games I think they are the longest playing members who have games listed...
Do you play double or single games...
If you are having trouble forming block, I'd recomend playing singles and play troll first. that way you may learn from the other player - how they manage to form blocks.
Placing a dwarf in a square beside a line of trolls is usually a delaying tactic... It would delay the trolls from shoving an attack as they step out to remove the threat of the Dwarf. then again they could ignore it, if the shove is of more importance.
Edit by OB 17/02/07: the address to my site has changed, so I edited the link to point in the right direction. But thanks anyway Aine, for pointing it out.
Hi, wkdfrog. I came to this forum out of the same frustration, and am having so much fun that I no longer care...
Doesn't help? OK, I can see why. I'm a complete novice too, and I find so far the only thing I can do as dwarves is feint and maybe fool the trolls about where I am planning to build my block. In the game I am just finishing with Aine, although I am getting my butt whipped, I did actually form a block for the first time. I THINK I did it by looking like I was working in one area, when in fact I was arranging future diagonal moves which would allow me to quickly form a block elsewhere, after I had distracted trolls away from that side. Ask Aine if that's how I really did it. It didn't help me win, but I felt less frustrated.
No question that dwarves must take a purely defensive strategy all the way. There is no coming out ahead as dwarves, although maybe the more experienced could set me straight on that. It seems like you could only win your battle as dwarves if you were very experienced and your opponent not at all.
But every game is won by one of the two players, and it is won partly because they defend their dwarves better. I have faith that I can learn to do this. So let's all beat each other until we get it.
Mag.
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Oograh Boike and Mr Scrub and...
Dewi,
...and now you expect me to write something like that as well?
Bugrit, mate, that was excellent!
Thanks to Aine for plugging my site, again. If wkdfrog should decide to try some games on my site, Mc's (before AKA Marc Boeren), and Puccio's are the best!
But the best way to learn the game, I have to agree with Magrat, is just play, play, play, and cherish the scars...
OB.
edit: Oh well, maybe just a little bit of strategic advice then. The tendency in most novices questions like wkdfrogs is "Why can't I win with dwarfs?"
)
Simplest answer to that is: just because. You can't. Nope. Get used to it.
Trevor did design this game (I guess) as a match with a return game, because he knew it would be very, very hard to win just one game when you're dwarfs.
But that's (IMHO) the best part about Thud! I know of no other game that has this duality: be a loser once, be a winner once, and only then can you decide if you really won OR lost.
Suck at dwarfs, and be a genocidal Troll, and you can still win. Be mediocre at both, and you can still win. Wow, my head spins at the genius of it! (No wonder I've been playing this game for two years now, almost every day, and never lost a bit of enthusiasm
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I'm sorry if I seem to be developing a habit of resurrecting old threads, but I read through most of Dewi's tome with fascination (having not yet played a game of Thud in my life) and three things came to mind.
Firstly, Dewi's post, along with its diagrams, is the best instructional device I've seen so far, and hopefully by bumping this thread I'll make it more obvious to new players (if there still are any new players other than me at this point).
Secondly, I noticed mention of a Thud-playing bot, is this still in the pipeline? I think it would make the game much more accessible, being able to play against the computer in the same way that an inexperienced chess player can get themselves soundly beaten without having to find an opponent.
Finally, can anybody explain how, in the creation of the game, it came about that the dwarf side is the more difficult side to play? I seem to remember that in the book, the dwarfs were described as the easier side between beginning players... is this still true, if the players are of a Sergeant Colon calibre, or has this element of the story been overlooked in favour of creating a better game?
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WOW!
The diagrams are a REALLY helpfull for beginning players.
I suggest you make a link to them on the third page of the rules!
Although they can use a graphic upgrade if they'd be part of the 'official-rules' page.
Rolf
Edit:
Was not sure where to put this, on the site suggestions forum or here.
ik spreek überhaupt maar een woord duits
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such long comments,but well worth it.good advice for begginers(we probably all are in some way)and is good stuff to know.
i laak it,i laak it a lot
_O_
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