Salman Rushdie

this is a most interesting topic OB,i must say i haven't read any satanic books,but it may be quite interesting...now i just need to find one

I haven't read any of his books, but were they realy so brilliant he deserved a knighthood?
He got one yesterday.

All he seems to have done is get all the muslims stirred up and wasted millions of british pounds so that he doesn't get killed.

So it's probably the World Trade Centre's fault that billions of dollars got wasted because they were in the way of a couple of airplanes, right? Come on mate. This is a freedom of speech issue, and I'm sure Mr Rushdie did not choose to be in peril of his life for 18 years.
He did write brilliant books, I suggest you try to read one. Satanic Verses for instance, but any other will do as far as I'm concerned.

OK.
Just to be sure, I did a wiki on the Verses, to see if I did get my facts straight. Apparently I did, even more than I thought I could reproduce from memory in a slightly emotional first post. It looks like the book made an even bigger impression than my memory thought it did.
But I stumbled on this gem whilst doing so:

So I guess it's time for us now to start burning Qu'rans, and beleaguering Pakistani embassies whilst burning flags and requesting the head of first The Honourific Chairman Ashrafi's, and second Mr Bin Laden's? We don't, obviously.
Ah well, we do, as far as Mr Bin Laden is concerned, but preferrably if the head is still attached to a body, and for various other and very obvious reasons. But that's beside the point.
If they think they want to make Mr Bin Laden a Saifullah, so be it. But if we want to make Mr Rushdie a Knight, it looks like so be it not.

This is growing very much into a political issue, and I feel I'm making it so. But it's not, and I don't want it to be. This is about a book, and a very good one at that. Good enough to grant the writer a Knighthood, if not for this one, then for his other books.
But other people think this should be a political issue, and I'm not allowing them to make it one. Not anymore. Period.

Too much to quote individually so I'll just reply....

1. Big respect to OB for posting on an emotive and controversial topic! There are important things to stand up to in the world today and one thing that's cost infinitely more than a few quid to guard Salman Rushdie is the cost of attaining our freedoms, liberties and civil rights. Try choosing to read whatever you wish in a lot of places nowadays (what do you think the Mullahs and the madrassas would think of the Discworld once they noticed it?!?). I think it's worth the effort to make a statement that we believe differently and are willing to push the boat out for those that agree AND write outstandingly good literature in spite the threat to their safety.

2. It's easy to get lost in fantasy escapism and imaginary worlds but the darkside of postmodern is the trap of "every point-of-view is equally valid." But then read what TP say Sam Vimes did when the dwarf Taliban accused him of being a word destroyer (blackboard monitor) and thus anathema to their culture? Now replace "dwarf" in the previous sentence with "Pakistani" or "Kashmiri"...

2. Partly as a result of OBs post and description of "The Satanic Verses", partly as a result of all the furore raised around the world, I'll be buying the book this weekend and reading as soon as possible. Chalk one more sale up to the "law of unintended consequences!"

3. It's nice to see the royal family do the right thing of their own volition for once! Good on Queenie for knighting Mr Rushdie! Maybe royals have a use after all

4. Like OB said, it's interesting to look at who exactly is burning books (or beheading people for their status or beliefs!) and who's reacting in exactly which way. It's lovely playing games and chatting about fun stuff but sometimes we have to take a stand on important things and my foot is very firmly planted next to our right-honourable Druids on this!

i find that it's a good thing we're talking about something a bit more intelligent than chocolate penguins and stuff like that for once.i for one am not aq political person so if i say something wrong then please correct me,although i don't think i'll delve too deeply at this point.

it's very hard to say these days what is really going on,i don't keep too much abreast of things,but what i do know is that millions,nay billions of people believe in different things and they're all justified to believe what you want,it's our right to say what we want,when we want,and to who we want.

anyway,i believe that if someone deserves something then they'll get what's coming to them,if mr rushdie deserves a knighthood for what he's done then by all means he should have it.bin laden probably (and this is when my vast political knowledge abandons me,sorry OB for making this political for just this one post,i promise i won't do it again) did something that warranted him the title of saifullah due to his achievements,and so be it.i don't know if i'm completely misguiding you [if i am then don't internalise any of this] or if i'm just saying something everyone knows already and i don't,or maybe i seemed to have an amazing insight into things,but whatever the case i think it's great we're talking about this,now if i can only get my head wrapped around it

Ok, ok, sorry OB for upsetting you about Salman Rushdie.
I'm not really into politics. After reading all of this, I'm also going to read The Satanic Verses and see what all the fuss is about.

That's the spirit. Too many people deal out their judgement before even knowing halfways what "the fuss is about", really, to quote you words. I dare not exclude any of us from that, beause I myself am not any better. And I really don't know you as well as I know myself.
The point, though, is to accept, that you might be wrong, and to give others the chance to prove you wrong.

That's quite an interesting discussion you started there, OB.
For me it really boils down to something I learned from my parents (and I'm quite sure they were quoting someone, though I do not know the source): Your freedom ends just where the other's freedom begins.
The only problem is, that some people haven't learned this or just don't want to obey that rule.

Don't know, if the words you used were appropriate, but you triggered off a discussion that's worth it.
I did not read anything Mr Rushdie wrote. I was six years old, when Satanic Verses were published. I shall as well find a copy and read it.
There's more I'd like to say but unfortunately I am unable to find the words.
Maybe, after some time, or after the right words were written in an answer to this post, I remember what I wanted to say.

Quite a few people whose opinion i respect have been critical of Salman Rushdie's writing abilities so i have never read any of his books to know for sure myself, after Oograhs comments whose opinion also respect i may change my mind and one day read one of his books tho i have a lot of books on my to read shelves so it may be some time but as Voltaire is often misquoted as saying "I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" I am the kind of radical liberal that thinks book burning should be a capital offense in reality i would accept that the sentence should be commuted in most cases but when i see people burning books in my less liberal moments wish that they would trip and fall on top of the fire. Its my opinion that book burning is a crime against civilization and i mean any book.

A little while ago i was re-watching the movie "Indiana Jones and the last crusade" and in it it had a book burning scene at a Hitler Nazi rally and in it if you watched closely one of the books throw onto the fire was mein kampf which i think was meant to be a comment on which books should be burnt by the films makers but i think that even books by Hitler and other monsters from history should be kept in our libraries for the reason that if it was possible to burn all the copies of Hitlers books in the world and eradicate all knowledge of Hitler and his deeds in the world then what would stop a new Hitler having the same ideas and repeating history if we did not have a previous example to learn from.

A great movie Fahrenheit 451 based on Ray Bradbury's book of the same name gets across these ideas in way my rant can't hope live up-to in some ways i think the movie is more horrifying that horror movies like SAW or Hostel if you think about the consequences of the kind of society that institutionalises book burning.

One of the ideas i did like from Fahrenheit 451 was the idea that to get round the law about it being illegal to own books some people took to memorising books and the person became the book in a way and i thought it was something that would be nice to do and has been on my "Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead" list as in the 10 things you should do before you die list for some time but so far i have never got around to it but this discussion on Salman Rushdie reminded me how much i disapprove of those who burn books and going even further also trying to get rid of the author as well. Sometimes you have to use your freedoms especially those of speech otherwise how will you know if someone or group is trying to take them away so i am going to continue my rant and try and share my and others ideas in this post as one wag said in his sig "Real men don't backup they just FTP up-to the net" i on the other hand think backups are a good idea and in that gist and as my memory is not that good these days i thought i would share the idea of becoming a book so i tried to find a short one that we could all have a go at and i came up with :-

Often thought to be The shortest sf story ever was "Knock," by Fredric Brown:

"The last man on earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door."

Tho after googling to find the above i found :-

"Cosmic Report Card: Earth" by Forry Ackerman
F.

Apparently there has been due to the Salman Rushdie's Knighthood incident scenes of burning Union Jack flag in Pakistan to which the Now Show came up with the following joke

Americans response to the burning of the stars and stripes is :-
"Goddamm commie foreigners desecrating our flag"

British response in these days of global warming to the burning Union Jack flag is :-
"I hope they planted a tree to offset those carbon emissions"

Sometimes i do appreciate living in a relatively free country where we can express our views it gives comedians lots of ammo without people really shooting back usually.

I have a personal story that involves a book that some tried to censor my grandfather on my dads side was a captain in British merchant navy and on a visit to China during the cultural revolution he arrived just after an American commercial ship had entered the same port at this time the Chinese were asking every captain that arrived in port if they could send someone aboard ship to hand out copies of "Mao's little red book" to all the poor exploited workers on board the ships, i paraphrase this somewhat as i got the story second hand via my dad and heard it a long time ago myself but the gist of it was that The American Captain refused to allow his crew to be contaminated by commie propaganda but my Grandfather was polite and let the Chinese hand out their literature to his crew. My Grandfathers ship was customs inspected unloaded and reloaded and out of port with the captain & crew getting their bonuses for being ahead of time before the American ship was even customs inspected. So the moral of the story is you can be a better capitalist by being polite to communists. Mao's little red book and that story are what i have inherited via my dad from grandfather so the book is precious to me for that reason rather than the contents but it is bookmarked at the page that contains The Eight Points for Attention :-

Mao's little red book

"Quotations from chairman Mao Tse Tung"

The Eight Points for Attention are as follows:
(1) Speak politely.
(2) Pay fairly for what you buy.
(3) Return everything you borrow.
(4) Pay for anything you damage.
(5) Do not hit or swear at people.
(6) Do not damage crops.
(7) Do not take liberties with women.
( Do not ill-treat captives.

I don't know who bookmarked that page but like the 10 commandments these seem a reasonable basis for a civilised society but like the major religions commandments they were not always followed by their own proponents. I have wondered if the thou shalt not and do not messages rub people up the wrong way by not allowing them to think for themselves so they mentally add to message "Thou shall not kill" unless its an infidel, witch or tax inspector fill in your preference. So i once sat down and thought about what rules/guidelines would be a good basis for a modern tolerant secular society and this was what i came up :-

Secular set of guidelines (Open source free to copy and share

1)We should not steal.[*1]
2)We should do unto others as you would have done to you.[*2]
3)We should know that there are always exceptions.[*3]

[*1]As well as property this should included life, health, respect etc.
[*2]Consider the views of the other when implementing this.
[*3]Try not to be too selfish when choosing those exceptions.

And after that long therapeutic rant and just in case anyone reaches this bit i will quote DNA before my final say "The last person who said lets be nice to each other got nailed to a tree"

4) Kill each other burn all the trees, use Blair's and Bushes autobiography's to barbeque a member of an endanger species, promote intolerance of anybody who is not your mental clone and finally have a sense of humour failure!!!!!

YAY my 1401th point!

I did not see that comming.

I think that in order to be a functioning society the general rule of thimb should be don't do things to people you wouldn't want to have done to you (pretty fundamental) unless thay have already broken the rule.

I like to think of myself as ultra liberal to the degree that find the existence of the conservatives personally offensive. I am not as weak as you appear to be and I think that all book burning sdhould be punished with capital punishment...unless you do it to survive...but the movie tyhe day after tomorrow was propaganda.

... will finish this post at home...

That's a good rule, I can't see many world leaders agreeing to it though.

Well, I read the book (The Satanic Verses), it was actually really good. It was funny but it also had lots of meaningful moments. I can see why the muslim community might get worked up about it- he was being pretty rude about the prophet- but isn't it just that muslims take everything as offensive, even when its not? I think that in general Musilms could be described as insecure about the strength of their religion as they are too afraid to let anything bad be said about them. I guess giving Rushdie a nighthood didn't help the probolem, but it shows the muslim community that we as a country won't be subjected to their ideals when we aren't a predominatly muslim county.

uh...you're kinda sounding a bit too defensinve there. it's not muslims that are the problem, it's the conservatives I'm sure most muslims were piqued but only a few would have had the fanaticism to be seriously offended. Further more, many of your own are muslim, infact at time during its reign the british empire went to great pains to subjugate muslims and MAKE england predoninantly muslim. The piss christ controversy got quite a few people severly irked and that was catholic (P.S> look up "pissed catholic mother" on Youtube) I personally think that the idea of building that super mosqu thing in england is a good one even though England should not be made some muslim cetrum, Teh idea was that the mosque would have a garden in which all faiths could sit together and promote acceptance yada yada yada. Besides it'd look a damn sight better than whatever else ppl want to go there...what happen to that idea anyway?

This isn't a war you have to wage agaisnt muslims. more it is a battle against the conservative (usualy linked to religion in general...read Dawkins' "the god delusion" I got a distinction in philosophy so it can't be all bad) people.

ever heard of the bahai' faith.

check out this here

I'd be hurt if I had feelings

I am familiar with the bahai' although I lost a little respect when i did some research even though I must say the architecture is stunning.

what pray does it have to do with the issue of the muslim community being misrepresented and the opposition of the brits to allow a mosque which would be a pretty and peacful place to be?

P.S. Let it be know that today I obtaioned my own copy of Salman rusdie's Satanic verses.

Also, the coop bookshop rocks they even have the tale of Genji and the Ramayana among others. I was stunned

I'm just stunned to hear that the co-op have a bookshop.

it was just a little side-order kinda referring to a common cause based on beliefs,in any case most religion teaches people about the same things when it comes to morals and ethics

are we on the same page? the co-op /is/ a bookshop.

In the UK the Co-op was the shortened name for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group but most commonly thought of in its grocery/small supermarket incarnation which was kind of a fair trade group created to mitigate the worst exploitation of the workers during our industrial revolution when it was common for factory owners to want their workers to buy from the factory's own shop(at inflated prices) sometimes using company script(paid to the workers rather than real money) IIRC my history.

So we were not all on the same page